The Spring Forward Podcast
The Spring Forward Podcast, formerly focused on general organizational excellence, has evolved to become your go-to resource for all things nonprofit. Host Spring Richardson Perry brings her expertise to guide listeners through the intricacies of nonprofit management, offering insights, strategies, and inspiring stories to help organizations thrive and maximize their impact in the community.
The Spring Forward Podcast
Nonprofit Boards and Executive Leadership
The relationship between nonprofit boards and executive directors can make or break an organization's effectiveness. In this illuminating conversation, governance consultant Nicole Gagliardi unpacks the often challenging dynamics that arise when boards and EDs try to navigate their roles and responsibilities.
Here are some key takeaways:
• Boards hold ultimate accountability and delegate day-to-day management to executive directors
• Executive directors navigate relationships with multiple "bosses" who may not see themselves as employers
• Board members from corporate backgrounds often bring unconscious biases about nonprofit professionals
• Creating a detailed code of conduct helps define expectations and accountability for board members
• Conflict management skills should be a key consideration when selecting board chairs
• Neutral third parties can effectively mediate conflicts between boards and executive directors
• Confidentiality in governance should support trust rather than promote secrecy
Find Nicole (Nic) Gagliardi on LinkedIn or visit her website at riseandrun.co to learn more. Her biweekly newsletter "Nonprofit Board Stories" offers insights on governance challenges, and she has a new performance management system for small nonprofits coming this spring.
Hey, nonprofit friends, welcome to the Spring Forward podcast, where we talk about all things nonprofit, from board discord to grant writing and strategic planning tips. If you're an executive director, nonprofit board member or just someone heavily involved in the nonprofit sector, then this is the podcast for you. Let's spring forward into excellence. This is the podcast for you. Let's spring forward into excellence. Welcome, welcome, guys, to another episode of the Spring Forward podcast. I'm your host, spring Richardson Perry, and today we have a great topic for you. We are talking about nonprofit boards and executive leadership. And to help me talk about this topic I have Nick Gaglardi and I know she's going to correct me because I'm sure I butchered that, but she is a governance consultant based in Canada that works with nonprofit organizations across North America.
Speaker 2:So welcome, nick Hi thanks, Spring Nice to be here.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for being here, and so how did I do with your last name?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's Gilardi, but that's okay, it's a tricky one.
Speaker 1:Gilardi, yes, it doesn't look how it sounds, so it's a tricky one and it does not. But I'm so glad and so thankful that you were able to be here today to lift up this super important topic, because boards essentially run the nonprofit right. We always think of the executive director as the figurehead right, because they're the one that you see on a daily basis, but in actuality, the board is the one that you see on a daily basis, but in actuality, the board is the one that holds all the power.
Speaker 1:And yeah, and unfortunately, boards don't always agree on things, and so, you know, I really would love to lift this up and talk about this today, because you have a great column that you do on LinkedIn and in your newsletter just about some issues that you've run into throughout the course of working with different organizations, and it's really good guys, and so if you get a chance, you need to check it out.
Speaker 1:Nicole, say, your last name, nicole Goularty Goularty, and she is. It is really good in terms of giving you some really good strategies and some really good conflict resolution tools if you are having these issues on your board. So one thing, one thing I want to start with let's talk about, you know, what we kind of said at first right, we think that the executive director is running the show, and which they are, in a sense, in the day to day operations of the organization. Right, but how do, how can nonprofit boards and executive directors establish clear boundaries to prevent role confusion and potential conflicts? Because, like we said, it's it's the board really running the show, but the executive director also has a level of power too. So what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think it's. You know, I think it's important to to realize, as you say, that the board is ultimately the people who are accountable in the organization, right? And so, you know, boards can. They can delegate that accountability, they can delegate their governance roles and they can delegate the management of the organization. And so when a board hires an ED, they're essentially they're delegating the day-to-day management of an organization to that role. And so I think, you know, we often we're looking for this like clean line between board and staff, and I think that the easiest place to find that is in an ED's job description, right? So if you're a board and you've hired an ED, you've hopefully created a job description for that role and your involvement, or your direct involvement, stops where that job description starts, right, because it's not efficient or effective for a board to be overlapping with work that they've already delegated to somebody else. So I think having a clear job description is the number one. It's really the most basic tool that you can have to help create that role. Clarity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, because the job description is going to clearly outline what the expectations of the executive director are, and so that should give the board an idea. Ok, we're giving these responsibilities to the executive director. So now this is our role in one, making sure the executive director is held accountable to those things sure, the executive director is held accountable to those things. But two, beyond what the executive director is doing, what else needs to be done to move the organization forward, and that part is what would then fall on the board. So I really love that explanation because it really is, you know, the most basic thing, like you said, but I think sometimes we overlook that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think you know boards most of the time not always, but most of the time boards are they're there for the right reasons. They want the organization to succeed, they want their ED to succeed, and there's sometimes a fear of letting go of some of those, those management roles that the e takes on. And so it's not to say that the board shouldn't be aware of what's happening, but they shouldn't be monitoring. They should, but they really need to be able to. You know, when you're, when you're choosing an executive director, that's a really important decision and you need to be able to to make that decision and stand behind it. Right? You, you've picked someone who's, who's better suited to that job than you are. So it's time to kind of take a step back and let them do their thing.
Speaker 1:I love that you hire someone to do a job, so let them do it. Yep Period. So talk to me in your experience. What are some of the most common sources of conflict between the nonprofit boards and executive directors? And like how can we sort of preemptively address them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you know there's two underlying trends that I see a lot that sort of. You know there's a lot of different sources of conflict. Nonprofit governance can be a tense space, right, the stakes are high, the work isn't easy, you never have enough resources, but I would say, underneath all of that, you have a situation where, you know, an ED is very aware of that, but it's their boss, right, and you know, we all know, how challenging it can be to navigate relationships with the boss. Well, your boss is actually 7, 10, 15 people who may or may not have any kind of structured process in place to communicate with you. So that's a challenging dynamic. The flip side is that a lot of board members don't think of themselves as a boss, they don't think of themselves as an employer, and so you have an ED who's approaching that relationship from that perspective and awareness of the power dynamic, but that awareness doesn't always extend to the other side, and so you end up with board members who are maybe sharing ideas or opinions off the cuff not realizing that it's landing, as you know, a boss. And so I think that I think that disconnect is is where a lot of those tensions that we would expect to see in any non-profit space can become amplified.
Speaker 2:Right, and the other thing that I see a lot and I don't think we talk about this enough is that it's not uncommon for people to join boards without a strong understanding or experience in the nonprofit sector. And I see this particularly when board directors are coming from a very corporate background where they come into the space with a lot of sort of misconceptions or bias about who works in the nonprofit sector. And I sometimes you know, in my work, I'll be interviewing board members and they have this very dismissive approach to their ED. They basically come in there thinking this person is incompetent or they're not very good at their job. There's this assumption that if you were a good leader, you would have a different job right, like a quote, unquote real job and I think that that's a really, really harmful, toxic perspective. It's baggage that many people bring into the board table and I don't think that we name that, I don't think we're aware of that often enough, but it can really really cause tension for boards and EDs.
Speaker 1:I think that's sort of an unconscious bias that some people have.
Speaker 1:I don't even think a lot of times they're aware of that right, but it's so true that they come with this preconceived notion that if you were any sort of real leader, right with quotes around the word real because if you know, you would- be in a corporate setting getting paid all this money, but they don't take a step back to think you know you would be in a corporate setting getting paid all this money, but they don't take a step back to think you know this person, their values are quite different than your own personal values and they value something different than what you value. And and and I'm going to be the perfect example here when it comes to your parents, right, your parents want what's best for you and they want to see you sort of continue on their legacy a lot of the times, right? Well, my mom came from a very corporate background, was in a very large telecommunication company in management for over 30 years, and the way that I saw things operate in that company, the things that she dealt with on a daily basis, I personally vowed to never work in corporate America and so far so good, and so far so good. But you know, that's just an example to show how this is my mom. This is someone who has raised me who I should have typically pretty much the same values, the same ideas as this person does. Very different, very different in a sense. Right, because I very much value small, small business, intimate relationships when it comes to the work world, especially in the nonprofit world.
Speaker 1:My heart has always been in the nonprofit world and I think I think watching her deal with all the corporate shenanigans sort of solidified that for me, because you know you think of the corporate shenanigans, sort of solidified that for me because you know you think of the corporate world as hardcore. They have no feelings, it's all about business and nobody's your friend at the end of the day, right. But then when you you think in the nonprofit world, you think of leading with your heart and you think of of being aligned with whatever the mission is of the organization and the people that you're serving. It's about the community.
Speaker 1:And so I think I think watching her said that story to say that when people come into these spaces, like on a board, from a corporate position, like you said, they don't realize their own biases that they have and it does create a very toxic environment because they may very well realize I'm your boss, and so it's one of those things where now you have, like you said, five, seven, 15 bosses and this person who's coming from this corporate background they're used to calling the shots autonomously if they were a director at a director level for their you know their team, or if they were the CEO of an organization, definitely making decisions autonomously for sure.
Speaker 1:But now, yes, you are one of this ED's bosses, but you have other people that are making decisions with you that you have to consult with, that you have to talk to, that you have to come into agreement with, to move this organization forward. And so I am really glad that you said that and that you really lifted that up, because we don't talk about that enough. We don't talk about how, just because someone was a CFO and now comes to sit on a nonprofit board as the treasurer, you know that CFO experience in the corporate world is going to be completely different than CFO experience and being the treasurer of a board in the nonprofit world. So amen to that. That is something that I think is going to be a conversation that we're going to be having for a very long time, because that dynamic is just a tricky one to navigate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I think you know, even the whole bias thing aside, I think a lot of people they don't have a deep understanding of what it's like to work in a nonprofit. Right, there are unique challenges. Right, it's a unique environment. Right, it's a unique environment, it's a unique culture. Um, and so there may not be, yeah, there may not be, an appreciation of what, what you know, what a, what an ed is actually dealing with on a day-to-day um, or how valuable their, their, their non-profit experience, or their lived experience might be. I think I I think there's often a disconnect there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very much so. And you know one of the things, because, as we're talking about these relationships and like these interactions and the way that the board, their perception and that perception has them to interact in a particular way, right, you recently wrote an article about maybe establishing a code of conduct for your board members, and I absolutely love that. I love that how can they either implement a code of conduct that promotes healthy communication and conflict resolution or just develop one in general, because I'm sure a lot of non-profits do not have this in place right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's a really, really important bit of governance policy for organizations to have, and it's one that that you want to be really upfront and intentional about, right. It's. It's really important that you know you've got your governance binder, your policy suite. This is something that I think, when directors are signing their confidentiality agreements, that they're also signing a code of conduct. I think it needs to be that intentional. There are, like you know, there's tons of policy templates out there that you could find, but I think the best you know code of conduct approach is to really make sure that it aligns with your organization's values, right, so that's going to look different from organization to organization. I think it's also important to include you know examples or details. So I quote you know code of conduct policies and they say things like you know, directors need to behave respectfully. What does that mean? Right?
Speaker 1:What does that mean Exactly what?
Speaker 2:do you mean by respectfully right? And no two people are going to have the same concept of what that means. When you're working in a diverse environment, you know that's language that can be weaponized environment, you know that's language that can be weaponized. So I think you need to be pretty clear about where those lines are and I think you know to your point. It should. If you have staff, it should clarify how should board interact with staff, what are the expectations there? You want to be really intentional about that and it needs to also have a policy or a process attached to it where it's clear what happens if.
Speaker 2:If a board member violates that code of conduct. What happens then? Right, how does that get called out? How is it dealt with? Obviously, you want to have, you know, fair, reasonable process. But there should be a process in place because people make mistakes, People do the wrong thing, and so you want to. You want to be fair, you want to be equitable in how people are treated on your board. But you don't want, you don't wait, Something happens and then have to make it up as you go. Right, it's best to think about that on the front end, I think it's best to think about that on the front end.
Speaker 1:I think I agree, I absolutely agree. When you're proactive about handling these things and not reactive about handling them, I think it sets you up for better success.
Speaker 1:And I'm taking notes, writing these things down as we're talking about it, because I'm thinking about the two nonprofit boards that I sit on and we don't have a code of conduct and not that we necessarily need one in this moment, but when the time does come and we do need one, there will be one there to reference, and then if something happens we need to reference it and say it doesn't specifically address that situation, then at that point we can refine it even more based on experience with that, with with that particular situation but, having just having something in place.
Speaker 1:Um, I think that's super important and I was just in love with the article that you wrote about this, because I had never even it, never even crossed my mind. You know, you have bylaws that tell you what the president does, what the treasurer does. You know everybody has a role. It's defined. You talk about your internal controls, your programming and all that good stuff, but we don't talk about how board members should act and how a healthy relationship between the board and the executive leadership should look, and I think that that's important because they have to work together to move the organization forward. So that relationship needs to be clearly defined, and what better way to do it than in the bylaws?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think I mean, ultimately, it's about accountability, right, because, right, the board has so much power and what you know, when you're in a position of power or authority, what you say and do, it carries weight, it matters, right, effectively, it's really important that the board can hold itself accountable and make sure that everyone there is, you know, is, is a, that they know what's expected of them and and and and and what is inappropriate and and, that they know that that they, that they'll be held accountable for for that behavior.
Speaker 1:So I love that you say that right Accountability that we're going to hold people accountable for their actions, right. But sometimes accountability can cause conflict. So, you know, conflict isn't always necessarily a bad thing. However, it can. It can be difficult, you know. So what are like, what are some ways that you would suggest, what are some effective techniques that you would suggest for facilitating difficult conversations between board members or between the board and executive leadership? You know, what are some ways that you deal with this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's such a good question, spring, you've mentioned my newsletter a couple of times and, honestly and honestly, I get these stories or questions from people and I see it in my own work, in my own consulting work too, these tricky situations, the very conflictual situations that organizations get into or that pop up in governance spaces and, honestly, you know, there's a lot to be said around governance structures and training and 90% of governance problems are just a lack of communication and a lack of conflict management. Right, because it's just, you're in a space of power with human beings. It gets messy. With human beings it gets messy and something about those nonprofit spaces. Right, where we're really have me, I don't know if this is the same as us it's definitely in Canada.
Speaker 2:The nonprofit culture in Canada it's very conflict-averse, right, we've got this sort of like you know this, like Victoria, our Victorian roots, very like a Protestant, like like just be quiet, be polite, don't rock the boat, don't challenge anyone, right, and that's a big problem because conflicts happen, right, issues come up, and so I think the first thing, we can talk about policies and process, but there needs to be a culture on the board where it's okay to have conflict, to name conflict and there needs to be, like, the skills and capacity to actually work through it. Um, sometimes that comes down to leadership, and so I think it's really, really important, when an organization is selecting a chair, that that chair has conflict management skills. And if they don't't have that or they're uncomfortable, you know. You know you get situations on boards where you have someone with a lot of clout in the community or something, and the chair doesn't feel able to call that person out, call that person in. You have to find a way to make sure that your chair is capable of doing that.
Speaker 2:So, you know, again, having some kind of a process in place, right, can be simple, but having something that says you know, when there's a conflict between board members, this is how we're going to handle it, this is what the process will look like, that can help a lot to address that hesitancy, because what often happens is it's messy stuff, right? Someone comes to you and says, oh, so-and-so on did this or that, and I'm concerned, and people are like, oh, I don't really know what to do with that, so I'll just do nothing. Right, I'm just gonna leave that one alone. Um, so having a process in place means that you can say, oh god, uh, I am really uncomfortable with this, but here's the process, let's do it. And when you're talking about conflict between the board and the ED because of that power dynamic, I think it's really important to be open to the possibility of bringing in a neutral third party to help, to help kind of mediate whatever is going on.
Speaker 1:I absolutely agree with that, bringing in someone like yourself to mediate these things. And say in someone like yourself to mediate these things and say, okay, let's look at the situation as a whole, let's look at what policies you have in place right now and then let's see how we can take these policies, make them better. If there's nothing already, let's okay. Let's figure out the whole situation in and of itself and what can we do differently, moving forward, what policies can we put in place? I love bringing in a neutral third party because that takes the feelings out of it. Right. That takes, of course, the executive director is closely tied to the situation itself because I'm sure you know whatever happened. They were involved in that situation in the organization and the board, of course, is responsible for whatever happens. So their feelings are involved as well. So when you get this neutral third party to come in, they can see things with clear eyes and they can get to the root of the problem. Because you may not necessarily be able to do that. You know, when you have two people who are just going at each other, you know no one thinks that they're wrong, and neither may be. It's not about being right or wrong. It's always supposed to be in the interest of the organization and the community that you're serving.
Speaker 1:And it's interesting when you say in Canada that the nonprofit culture is more so like, ooh, I don't wanna. Like, you don't wanna deal with anything adverse, you don't wanna say anything that's gonna make anybody angry or be conflicting, right, but very much so on the American side. When you think of social impact, you think of nonprofits. It's sort of a mix of the two. There's that culture where it's what you're describing, you don't want to shake it up, but then it's the other extreme where we are super passionate, we are advocates and we are just rebels fighting against every single rule that exists because it's all wrong. So how do you navigate that? Right, like you have these very two different cultures ideas. You may have a very passionate executive director that doesn't mind challenging the status quo, where you have these board of directors who are just kind of like I'm just here to fill a seat and I don't really want to rock the boat, let's just keep it going. So how do you balance?
Speaker 2:that, yeah, I think what I have found is that every board, every organization, stuff is going to happen. Something's going to happen. It's going to get messy. People can get through it, your organization can get through it, but if you, you know how you handle it matters right, and I think how you handle it is the difference between you know, a difficult issue kind of blowing up, um, where you have directors resigning, you have your ed resigning. This, this thing is very common, right, um, uh, you know versus where you do your best, you have a process, you follow it, even if it's not perfect, even if the the issue is complex and messy. If people feel like it, like it's getting a fair shake, right, um, if they fee, if they have an opportunity to feel heard, if, um, you know, if everyone is treated respectfully, then you have a much higher uh, you know probability of getting through that without, without the bomb going off, you know probability of getting through that without without the bomb going off, I know, right, that's what I'm thinking about.
Speaker 1:It just an explosion, right, and then you have to, you're left to pick up the pieces, and that's never easy trying to rebuild from that. So I, I appreciate that I want to, so I'm going to wrap it up here. But one of the last things I want to so I'm going to wrap it up here, but one of the last things I want to talk about is the level of transparency right within the board. But also, you know, there's a level of confidentiality confidentiality that needs to be had as well when we're talking about addressing conflicts within the organization. So how do we balance that? We have this issue that has come up, and nonprofit organizations are supposed to be very transparent in the way that they operate and the things that they do, because, again, the organization exists to serve the community, so they need to know what's going on. But then also there's that level of confidentiality that needs to be had sometimes with certain situations. So how do you balance that need for transparency with the need for confidentiality in certain situations?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think that they're. I don't think that they're, you know, incompatible, right? So confidentiality is a really important part of good governance, but confidentiality and secrecy are different, right and so. So I have to tip my hat to there's a Canadian, grant McDonald. He has a great resource on this called you know something like you know it's about in camera board sessions careful how you use them, right, because a lot of boards they overuse and they misuse in camera sessions in the name of confidentiality.
Speaker 2:But often what they're discussing isn't something that requires confidentiality, they're just being secretive. And so transparency is compatible with confidentiality because you can say hey, this is the issue we're talking about. It requires confidentiality, that's transparent. If you're just having closed door meetings and it's all very hush hush and people are kind of going around guessing, worrying, stressing about what you're talking about, that's secrecy, right? That's not compatible with transparency. So I think boards deal with sensitive issues. They need to be, you know. They need to have space for confidential conversations. But we need to make sure that you know confidentiality supports trust. It should never erode it, right? So if you're in a situation where trust is being eroded in your organization, then that's something. Trust is being eroded in your organization, then that's something you're going into the realm of secrecy there.
Speaker 1:I love that. I'm so glad that you differentiated between the two right Between confidentiality and secrecy because, like you said, that's two totally different things. If you're being secretive, then yeah, I'm going to be wondering what are you hiding, what are like? Then, yeah, I'm going to be wondering what are you hiding, what are like, what is happening. But you know, if we say, well, we had an incident that involved one of our employees, they're okay, but you know, this is all we can tell you about that, then that makes a huge difference. And so, like I totally I'm so glad you brought that up.
Speaker 1:I totally get that, because in my head I'm thinking, before we, before you just defined it, I'm thinking how can? What's the difference between secrecy and confidentiality? Are you holding secrets if you're being confidential? But I'm so glad you looked at this. This was amazing. Nick, I appreciate you so much because you just have so much knowledge around board governance and conflict resolution and making sure that there's a healthy relationship, maintaining that healthy relationship between the board and the executive director, because that's kind of a tough power dynamic to navigate. So I appreciate you. Thank you so much no, it's my pleasure.
Speaker 1:I always enjoy our conversations absolutely, and so if, if anyone wants to get in touch with you or just learn more about what you do, how can they reach out to you?
Speaker 2:uh, yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn. Um, you can check out my website, divisionrunco. I have the newsletter you've mentioned a few times. It's called Nonprofit Board Stories. I publish it every second week, so it's a biweekly piece coming out this spring. It's a performance management system for small nonprofits and so I have a wait list on my website if folks are interested in checking that out.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Yes, I'm sure that is definitely needed to give constructive feedback from the board to the executive leadership team, and so I appreciate that. Thank you so much, nick, and, as you guys heard, the baby in the background as well, and so we are going to sign off on that note. Thank you so much and, as always, guys, till next time on the Spring Forward podcast.