The Spring Forward Podcast
The Spring Forward Podcast, formerly focused on general organizational excellence, has evolved to become your go-to resource for all things nonprofit. Host Spring Richardson Perry brings her expertise to guide listeners through the intricacies of nonprofit management, offering insights, strategies, and inspiring stories to help organizations thrive and maximize their impact in the community.
The Spring Forward Podcast
Hiring and Retention in Nonprofits
Finding and keeping exceptional nonprofit talent requires both competitive compensation and a winning organizational mindset that values staff wellbeing as much as client outcomes. Dan Leal joins Spring Richardson Perry to share wisdom from his 20+ years of nonprofit leadership experience.
• Nonprofit compensation packages must include competitive salaries, quality health benefits (including mental health), and retirement planning
• Boards should shift from a scarcity mindset to a "winning mindset" when approaching organizational finances and hiring
• When hiring executives, look beyond impressive resumes to assess intangible leadership qualities through behavioral interviewing
• Creating diverse organizations begins with heart-centered authentic commitment rather than performative language
• Use technology thoughtfully in hiring processes and maintain human judgment rather than over-relying on automated screening
• Take time with hiring decisions—your people are your organization's most precious resource
If you want to connect with Dan Leal, find him on LinkedIn or email him at dan@seedlingmentors.org.
Hey, nonprofit friends, welcome to the Spring Forward podcast, where we talk about all things nonprofit, from board discord to grant writing and strategic planning tips. If you're an executive director, nonprofit board member or just someone heavily involved in the nonprofit sector, then this is the podcast for you. Let's spring forward into excellence, and this is the podcast for you. Let's spring forward into excellence. Welcome, welcome everyone to another episode of the Spring Forward podcast. I'm your host, Spring Richardson Perry, and today I am super excited to be talking to you guys about hiring and retention in the nonprofit sector. This is going to be a good one, because we are always talking about employee engagement or looking for ways to get good talent in the nonprofit sector, and I have back with us today once again Dan Leal, who has been in the nonprofit world since 2002. He is currently the CEO of Seedling and he is just a wonderful, wonderful person to get to talk to about the nonprofit sector and all the things going on. So I'm excited to talk to you today, Dan. How are you?
Speaker 2:I am really, really great and I'm just excited to talk about one of my favorite topics with you today.
Speaker 1:So this is going to be fun, this is going to be awesome. I want to start with talking about just talent in general. Right, because in the nonprofit sector it always seems like it's a little harder to attract good talent because of the salary ranges, right, and so in the private sector, if I was a development director, which would be the equivalent of a salesperson, I would be making maybe six figures, depending on where I was at, what company I was in. Right, I would be expected to make that much. But in the nonprofit sector I was looking today actually at what a development director makes. The US national average is anywhere from 80,000 to 120,000. So if you're at a larger nonprofit, you may be on the higher side, which could be comparable to the private sector, but if you're at a smaller nonprofit, you can go to the private sector and make more money. So how do we attract this top talent who's going to be really good at what they do, but also compensate them fairly in the nonprofit world?
Speaker 2:So twofold answer to that. Because it's both things right. So one is the compensation, so we'll talk about that first. Because it's both things right, so one is the compensation, so we'll talk about that first. And we have to educate our boards of directors. Even though the boards may not be looking at the specific salary of the staff other than certainly the executive director or CEO, the board sets the stage for sure with the executive director CEO compensation, the stage for sure with the executive director ceo compensation. Some boards do look at salary ranges and certainly the board is approving the overall budget for the organization.
Speaker 2:But as the ceo executive director, you've got to set that culture and that expectation with your board that we're going to compensate our staff. Well, obviously, behind that is the ability of the nonprofit to be sustainable in raising money. And you've got to be intentional on the fundraising side regarding or excuse me, on the benefit side, regarding the full package, when we're talking about compensation. So you're talking about the annual salary and constantly making efforts to do cost of living increases at minimum, if not bonuses, keeping your eye on local sector comparables but always wanting to be the best in those local sector comparables. And also that full package includes health insurance and what that looks like in providing a good health insurance.
Speaker 2:And then thirdly and I'm going to pause before we talk about culture, so I can take a breath and let you see if anything I said leads you to anything else. But I haven't forgotten about the culture, because that's a whole topic too. But also the retirement is very important because, because we want our employees as nonprofits to be set up for their future as well, nonprofit employees should not have to suffer in the future while they're doing great things today. And then, lastly, on the compensation side is mental health is a big deal, so you got to have a mental health package built in within your nonprofit too. So those are the four things, just purely on the money side, that I can think of. I may have missed some, but I'm going salary, I'm going raises or cost of living, I'm going health, I'm going retirement, and then back on the health. The fourth one would actually be the mental health tied in with that health package.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Total compensation package matters and especially when you have multiple offers that you're considering, you may take a lesser salary because you get these premium health benefits or you may take lesser health benefits because you get this larger salary that can cover that.
Speaker 1:And so I totally understand exactly what you're saying here and I really want to bring it back to the benefits themselves. Because, as an organization, right, you want to, like you said, you want to compensate your employees fairly, you want to set them up for success in the future, and so you have to be able to communicate that effectively to your board, because if we're not setting these salaries up in the beginning to where we can attract good talent but also sustain this for the future, then there's going to be a problem with the organization as a whole. And benefits, oh my gosh, like health insurance, is ridiculous. It's ridiculous, but it's one of those things that will make or break an offer for someone. So you have to be able to find a balance.
Speaker 1:And you know, I love when you said culture as well, because the culture of the organization matters, especially if I'm expecting someone to take a pay cut to come and work for me. Well, if they're taking a pay cut, they're coming to a toxic work environment, they don't have any benefits, they don't get a retirement plan, what's in it for them, and this is what I see in nonprofit organizations and their excuses. Well, we're a nonprofit, we can't afford that. You better figure it out, because you won't be anything if you don't have people to help you carry forward this mission.
Speaker 2:That's right. And you know what, when you have a nonprofit, one of the biggest mistakes that a nonprofit can make is operating that nonprofit from a position of let's not lose, instead of operating the nonprofit from a standpoint of let's win. Because you know what? We want our clients at our nonprofits to win. We want them to advance in their lives and no matter what service we provide, even if it's an emergency basic need, we want them to. You know, help them avoid, you know, homelessness, and that temporarily. But ultimately we want them to be economically self-sufficient. So shouldn't our nonprofits operate the same way? Instead of a losing mindset, let's move towards a winning mindset, not that we're less, than because that actually feeds into the culture.
Speaker 1:I totally agree with you, and when we start thinking with a scarcity mindset, we start reacting in that way instead of being proactive in what we can do. So I completely agree with you here. So I'm thinking too, dan because this has a lot to do with the executive leadership in the organization as well how they set these things up for success, how they frame this with their board. But when the board is looking to hire executive leadership right, how does that that work?
Speaker 2:talk to me about that so there's got to be really advanced um work in terms of vetting the executive director, and it goes even deeper than the numbers. You know you can. You want your person to have experiences in your field of work, sure, but this person has to show evidence, when you're hiring the executive director, of having a track record of success in fundraising, being a good steward of funds and also taking good care of their people. And also taking good care of their people and also, like there's intangibles that you've got to figure out as a board when you're interviewing the executive director. That will feed into a good culture.
Speaker 2:Really digging deep into how does this nonprofit CEO handle stress themselves, what are the ways that they handle it when things are going not so well, because there's a lot of things that can happen that can create that. How do you respond to crisis? But you've got to really dig deep. When you're using a recruiting firm, you've got to make sure that they're digging deep and doing screening and asking some of these intangible questions, because it's not always in the numbers. People can dress up their resume real nice and they can look good from. You know, coming from a big organization that had this many millions of dollars and all that, but that doesn't mean that that doesn't mean they did a great job, nor does it mean that they did a good job taking care of their people. So you've got to dig way deep behind the numbers and look at the intangibles of leadership, because leadership is about deeper things than just numbers.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And I'm laughing over here when you said a larger organization with big numbers because, like you said, they could not have anything to do with that. Right, they just had a great team and, for whatever reason you know, they they couldn't find their footing or whatever happened in that role, that they weren't successful. But it looks like they were successful because you have this large organization. That's pretty much a well-oiled machine.
Speaker 1:And so it's going to be very different when you're stepping into a role of a smaller nonprofit. That requires you to really roll up your sleeves and get dirty and get not not dirty like doing dirty stuff, but like you know what I mean. Get to the front line, work with some of your employees as well, and this is why I'm a huge fan of behavioral interviews because, I want to know what is it?
Speaker 1:how would you react in this situation? How have you reacted in this situation in the past? If you haven't encountered this type of situation, what are your thoughts on handling that? And that's going to tell you a lot about the intangibles that you're looking for within that organization, and I think that being able to assess that appropriately is going to give you a much more well-rounded person and give you what you're looking for in terms of the culture, building out the culture of your organization. I know I'm going deep. This is all in.
Speaker 2:I love it, I love it, I love it. You got to find the substance of the person. I mean, some people are also real good at showing style, like they might look good present well. What I mean by look good present, well, you know, but then maybe they don't really have substance. I mean, we all have to have a little bit of style to you know, advance and all that.
Speaker 2:But when you're doing interviews and when you're vetting these executive leaders and your leadership team, like you're, especially like your direct reports to your senior leader, you've got to understand the substance of the person. And you know one would assume, ok, these people are all in nonprofits that we're hiring, so they've got substance right. You know what I mean. Like an outside person, they would say, oh, they all have it. But that's not necessarily true. Everybody in the world comes into the workplace and into their profession with stuff right, profession with stuff right. You've got to figure out how is that person, uh, matured in their stuff and how do they handle the stuff that comes out. Then it comes at them. You know what I mean. So it just because a person works in the nonprofit oh, you know, a board's like, oh, this is such a great person and I love my, my people. I'm not saying anything about anybody, but you've got to really check the heart and the emotional intelligence and the maturity of those hires, all of them, but especially at the executive and the director report levels.
Speaker 1:I love how you said that, dan. Right, you said your board says, oh, I love this person and or our personal relationship with them, whatever that may be into thinking, oh, this is a great person, they'll do great in this role. Well, what evidence is there that shows that they'll actually perform well in this role? What are the qualifications for this role? What are some of the things that they need to do, some of the role responsibilities, and what evidence have they shown that they can actually do these things successfully in this role?
Speaker 2:Right, and you know, in the nonprofit world today we need to hire people that have some business intelligence to them, to them. But obviously it's also something that they have to have a background in or around a field or similar type of field because of work within the sector. Right, because maybe not everybody is great with crisis services like domestic violence or child abuse, domestic violence or child abuse. Right, maybe not everybody is great in emergency assistance provision.
Speaker 2:Um, now, it doesn't mean nobody, not, I mean somebody can't cross over. But you got to look at some intangibles to see if they can cross over, if they've been in one section of the nonprofit sector to another. You know, the nonprofit executive has to have passion for the topic or they have no business applying. Certainly that's a thing that the board has to check their passion for the topic. But then there's some intangibles that also will tell you are they going to be good for this particular field or they don't have to know everything about it. They never maybe did it before, but they have to come in with a humility, a willingness to learn, but also some intangibles that tells me that they're going to be able to handle it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I agree, and I'm also thinking about when you say this right, this is going to.
Speaker 1:You're going to need a diverse pool of people to choose from, and I start thinking about the DEI initiatives that have been scaled back on the federal level. And so I'm thinking and I don't want to get political with this, because this is not about politics, this is about being able to find the right candidate. And so how does your nonprofit, how can you sort of weave in diversity, equity, inclusion, without saying this is a DEI initiative, but we're looking for people who have a diverse set of skills? We're not discriminating against anyone who maybe has a disability or is a neurodiverse individual and or or has a you know, a sexual preference that is different from mine. How do we incorporate this without saying it's DEI, but giving everyone a fair shot at if they have the skills, the qualifications and those intangibles that will fit well into the culture, into us carrying out the mission? You know how do we include that without including it. You know what I?
Speaker 2:mean I love this question and I love the way that you asked it. You did such a great job asking it, because this is how I, this is how I I think, and quite honestly, let me just say I had a pastor one time that used this phrase, and I keep using it over and over again, and this phrase is that the heart of the matter is the matter of the heart, and so when you're talking about having a workplace that's welcoming and is seeking diversity, that's a heart issue. That's not an issue that you can. Well, somebody might argue with me, but at least my personal feelings about this is I can't.
Speaker 2:I mean you need to educate, right, but just by putting the words there doesn't mean that you're going, that your heart is there either. Okay, words are words unless you back it up. I've chosen to live my life, especially in the workplace, in trying to show my heart in this matter, and I don't even I've never cared about I mean I care about words because words are important, but I mean I'm not, it's not, that's not the first thing Like, the first thing is the heart, and so it's got to be the heartbeat of your organization. The board and the executive director set that heart.
Speaker 2:So when you're talking about having a diverse staff, it's got to be at the top of your heart and the top of your mind to be seeking a diverse work pool, because when you have diversity in your board and in your hiring it makes your organization richer. You know, one challenge that I want to be transparent of that I've had in my organization one side is a good thing is that we hardly have turnover. So like I haven't had a higher in, you know, like a full-time hire in like 18 months even though we have 15 full-time staff members because everybody wants to stay. We've been very fortunate. So every time we make a hire because there's so few in a 15 full-time we have to have our eyes on that lens.
Speaker 2:But it's hard when you're looking to make progress when you don't have a lot of hiring. That just naturally happens. But it's got to be at the top of your mind and top of your heart to do that. And people know people want authentic people, will see through the heart and I think that's that's just how you have to be you. You have to show it and that overcomes any word subtractions or, quite honestly, unfelt word additions that anybody has.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love this because, you know, again, there's so much right now around DEI initiatives and, like you said, you can say anything, but how are we actually backing this up, how are we weaving this into the culture, the environment of our organization? And that's why, you know, I firmly believe that, whether or not you allow it, you know.
Speaker 1:on, a what do we call it on a law like, lawfully or not? We value everyone's opinions, we value everyone's perspectives, we value different cultures and different, just just differences among us that can help us to really serve the community that we're set up, that we set out to serve. And so I love, I just love, the way that you framed that because, um, you know it makes a difference in terms of how you're able to serve your community.
Speaker 1:Um, because if you have all of the same thought process, you know, what I mean, all of the same cultural backgrounds then you're going to be missing something, because there are experiences that others have had that maybe this group of people have not, and those experiences that they haven't had could be something very beneficial to the community in terms of how you serve them.
Speaker 2:Right. One more thing, and it kind of is a combination with the question you asked earlier about the benefits piece. I'm going to say that there are diverse, there are diverse groups that are in high, high, high demand in the nonprofit sector. That because we're because we as nonprofits should be hungry for having a diverse workforce, the salary demand is higher. So, for example yeah, you know what I'm talking about Spring, because people are in high demand, yes, it goes back. So if I want to intentionally hire someone who's maybe they're bilingual, well, you better pay for that.
Speaker 2:Or if I want to hire a person who's Black or African American, that has been in the sector and has great talent, which they you know, then you better be able to hire for it, because this person is in demand.
Speaker 1:Salary-wise, and even people who have trauma-informed experiences. They have those certifications in trauma informed care that is in high demand in the nonprofit sector.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, you better be able to put your money where your mouth is.
Speaker 2:I saw your face when I brought it up, because you know what I'm, you know what I'm talking about. Because you know what I'm talking about. And so if you want to be diverse, you better be ready to pay for it, because people are in high demand right now.
Speaker 1:So tell me this, dan what are some ways that the hiring committee can assess a candidate's alignment with the organization's mission and values, just beyond a traditional interview Like? What are some ways that they can find that alignment?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, every organization should have core values. I mean I would hope that they're written and I really encourage nonprofits to have those value statements that their employees put together. So you've got a mission, you have a vision, but also you should have value statements and, of course, as a nonprofit executive and leadership team, you should be backing those values up and make sure they shine. So when you ask questions regarding the interview, you want to make sure that this person's values align with yours in that regard, which also feeds into the culture. You just really got to figure out where your nonprofit sits in terms of that culture.
Speaker 2:Like a little subtle thing like, for example, you know, running a mentoring organization, I want to make sure my people are relationship-driven and that they are willing to dig a little bit deep, at least, you know, because that fits with the culture. And when you're a mentor, that doesn't mean, when I say that I want them to be relationship-driven, that they're all extreme extroverts or extroverts. No, you can still be relationship driven and be an introvert, Absolutely, you know. But you've got to find out that. So that's an example of my nonprofit, you know, with, like one of my values, relationship driven. I want to figure out if this person fits in our culture from a relationship driven standpoint.
Speaker 1:But I find introverts to be the best relationship builders because they're so, they're not going to just expend their energy on just anything Right, so they're going to make sure, okay, if I'm building a relationship with this person, I know this is not my thing, so I'm going to make sure it works, and so, yeah, they tend to be the best relationship builders in my experience.
Speaker 2:I love that. That is so, so true and also better listeners than some of us extroverts.
Speaker 1:Exactly. So let's talk about this too, because you know, ai is on the rise and I have seen I've seen so many people on LinkedIn as they were looking to hire. They're saying, oh, I'm tired of reading these AI resumes, but what can? How can you leverage technology to help you make these hires Right? Because, yes, we know AI is on the rise, we know people are going to use it. Um, but how can we use it to our benefit as we're looking to hire people?
Speaker 2:let me just say this uh and this isn't really what you're asking, but I just have to say it when we're talking about diversity in our non-profits, now we're all learning. I mean, I don't care what age you are. If you're, you know about your year in your seventies and you're on the verge of retirement, or you're 23, 25,. We're all learning about AI.
Speaker 2:But I will say, in our hiring and in our we have to have diversity from an age standpoint as well when you hire people because the younger generation is more tuned in flexible, knowledgeable, innovative in some in those regards to where we are looking at incorporating technology. Having that talent from a skill standpoint and sometimes younger, you know more with the people in this regard is helpful to your nonprofit to have that kind of diversity. Now, in using AI in hiring, I don't want to be able to tell if that employee put together their resume or they're certainly not their cover letter using AI. I don't want to know that they did, because it means it's authentic Right Now. If they did and it tells and I'm hiring and I'm going, oh my gosh, they used AI, they're out.
Speaker 2:But if they did use AI and I can't tell.
Speaker 1:I'm going.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh they used AI, they're out. But if they did use AI and I can't- tell.
Speaker 2:I'm like, oh, this is really good. I mean, this is good, I didn't even know. Then it's a better letter. So as far as on the end of the person that's putting themselves forth as the hire, I'm not going to want to know, Maybe it'll strengthen their ability. Now, as the receiver, my nonprofit's not big enough to screen for that sort of thing, but I would say that using AI in some basic screening is probably okay. But I'm a hands-on person and I like I mean these positions are so important that any higher level screening I'm going to want to do it myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, because you want to know what's coming through the hiring piece at all unless it's for the executive leadership or at least some well-defined like a well-defined job description, well-defined intangibles that you're looking for and some well thought out interview questions for this executive leadership position. But I totally agree with you when you say you know, you want to put your hands on it, you want to put your eyes on it, you want to see who's coming to your team because ultimately, as executive leadership in a nonprofit, they're going to report to you at some point. You know, when we're thinking about private, private businesses, you may not necessarily have interactions often with frontline people when you're at executive leadership, all the way at the top, but in the nonprofit world everybody's working towards one mission, one goal and at some point everybody's going to sit at the table and you guys are going to come together and say, okay, what do we need to do differently, what's working, what's not working and how can we move this forward. And in order to do that, you have to know who's on your team. You have to know their work style and what. You know what they're supposed to be doing, what they have done and what they still need to do and you need to have some sort of relationship with this person.
Speaker 1:So it's super important, like you said, that the executive leadership, the executive director or whoever, even the executive team if there's an executive team in the nonprofit itself, if it's large enough for that they need to be in on the hiring, they need to know who's coming in so that all of this, so that the organization thrives, because if you don't know who, you're't know who you're hiring, who's coming in, what's going on, then it's gonna it's gonna be a problem. Right, I've seen it. I've seen people be hands off. Somebody comes in and it just doesn't work and it's more detriment to the organization. Um, and the organization has to play cleanup, you know.
Speaker 1:So, everything, everything that happens, um, in smaller nonprofits, aside from like a United way or like the big habitat for humanity or something like that, but an organization like seedling right, if you had a this horrible employee who came in who's just going out building relationships on lies, that's going to reflect badly on your organization and then you have to play cleanup from that right and you have to try to figure out okay, now what am I going to do? How am I going to rectify this? You know this, they could have severed relationships with funders that could have been major donors that you need to go back and try to, you know, make relationships. So I'm always thinking about those things and how to be super careful and super cautious, but also welcoming everyone to at least, you know, feel like they have an opportunity to apply and an opportunity at a shot at it if they have the qualifications. So it's that, that balance. I know.
Speaker 2:That's why I think the initial maybe okay for your minimum qualifications, but, um, just make sure you're real. You're real on target about what your minimum qualifications are and what they aren't, because you don't want this tool to screen out somebody that might be good. So your non-negotiables are that's fine on the AI standpoint to screen them out, but just make sure you know what they are and what they aren't in terms of your minimum qualifications.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm not big on I am not big on automated screening tools when it comes to hiring a resume. It's like I much prefer. Let me put my eyes on it, let me read it myself. For let me put my eyes on it, let me read it myself, let me see for a fact, because these resume tools are going to be looking for specific words and they could very well describe, they could very well describe their experience not using any of those words, and those experiences could be way better than what the automated system can detect.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, and you know, in the AI thing, this is a test of our discernment, you know, in our wisdom, you know, and because the world will tell you, oh well, you're not with it. If you don't use AI and at least 80% of your you know workflows or whatever, then you're just not with it and you should be kind of embarrassed. No, it's not, that's, that's the wrong pressure you got to. We got to use wisdom and discernment, to use it where, where it really really is needed and helpful, and understand where it's not.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I agree, I agree 1000%. Um, this is great, dan. This is amazing. I'm so excited. Thank you so much for having this conversation with me.
Speaker 1:I just, I want to be able to give, give nonprofit organizations, the leaders, the hiring team, even the board just ideas about how they the CEO, to really drive the mission forward and to really have a team of people that's going to be effective in doing so. And so you have to make sure that you have the right person in place to be able to do that, and it's not just because, oh, I really like this person, we have a great relationship, so they'll be great in leadership. Well, what, like you said, what intangibles do they have that's going to fit into this culture? What actual evidence do we see that tells us that, yes, they can do some of the responsibilities of this role? They've successfully done it in the past. We feel like they're going to do it here. And are they coachable? Are we going to be able to really, you know, help them learn more about this specific organization, this role and what it takes to move forward in this organization?
Speaker 2:we've got to take time with people, you know, and sadly, people, people do make judgments right off the bat in a lot of things like in the world where we are so quick, everything information is coming out so quick we're also quick to judge, and so I would challenge us all to make sure that in hiring that we take our time with it, do those person to person-person things and not be so quick to judge with your negotiables and just check it out. Look into the person a little, a lot more. Take the time to do so, because your people are your most precious resource.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. And people in the nonprofit world. Like you said, we are a people sector. We are serving people. We are looking for the right people to help us serve those people. So we have to take time to really get to know people. So thank you so much, dan, appreciate you I've enjoyed it.
Speaker 2:It's a good time. Thank you for uh letting me talk about this and for your openness and great presentation of all the questions awesome, awesome, well, guys, thank you so much for tuning in today.
Speaker 1:Um dan, once again, if anyone wants to reach out to you, if they want to learn more about you or seedling or any of the other things that you have going on, how do they get in touch with?
Speaker 2:you. Yeah, find me on LinkedIn. We can connect there, or just email me at danatseedlingmentorsorg.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, guys, there you have it. Thanks for tuning in and until next time, guys, on the Spring Forward podcast.