The Spring Forward Podcast
The Spring Forward Podcast, formerly focused on general organizational excellence, has evolved to become your go-to resource for all things nonprofit. Host Spring Richardson Perry brings her expertise to guide listeners through the intricacies of nonprofit management, offering insights, strategies, and inspiring stories to help organizations thrive and maximize their impact in the community.
The Spring Forward Podcast
Fundraising and Donor Stewardship with Dan Leal
When it comes to nonprofit fundraising, relationships truly make the world go round. In this candid conversation with Dan Leal, CEO of Seedling Foundation, we dive deep into the art of balancing immediate funding needs with long-term donor cultivation in today's fast-paced, often disconnected world.
Dan shares how the pandemic revealed weaknesses in many organizations' donor relationships and digital fundraising capabilities. His practical wisdom on making meaningful connections resonates whether you're pursuing foundation grants or individual major gifts: "It's still about relationships and it's a matter of how you attain that relationship." Even a brief Zoom call or phone conversation can dramatically outperform email-only outreach when seeking funding.
Whether you're an executive director struggling with donor retention or a development officer seeking fresh approaches, this conversation offers practical strategies for authentic fundraising that honors your mission while embracing the power of genuine human connection. As Dan reminds us, in a divided world, our greatest fundraising asset might be finding commonalities that unite diverse supporters around our cause.
Key Takeaways:
• Relationships make the world go round—for both immediate funding needs and long-term donor cultivation
• Personal outreach (calls, in-person meetings) significantly outperforms email-only communication with potential funders
• Social media provides valuable opportunities to initiate one-on-one interactions with prospective donors
• When discussing operational costs, focus on program impact and outcomes rather than directly asking for "salary money"
• Major donor interactions require genuine interest in the donor's motivations, not just presenting your organization's needs
• Consider using AI (or "authentic intelligence") to discover fresh language and perspectives about your work
• Organizations with similar missions can differentiate themselves while still collaborating and sharing donors
Hey, nonprofit friends, welcome to the Spring Forward podcast, where we talk about all things nonprofit, from board discord to grant writing and strategic planning tips. If you're an executive director, nonprofit board member or just someone heavily involved in the nonprofit sector, then this is the podcast for you. Let's spring forward into excellence. This is the podcast for you. Let's spring forward into excellence. Welcome, welcome everyone to another episode of the Spring Forward podcast. I'm your host, spring Richardson Perry, and I am so excited to be coming to you today. We are going to be talking about fundraising and donor stewardship in the nonprofit sector. But before we get started, a few housekeeping things. I remember a couple of weeks ago I was talking to a good friend of mine, shandalyn, and we were talking about burnout with nonprofit nonprofit leaders and we talked about a retreat that we wanted to do, and so we are looking to you know, get you guys in on this. If you want in on the retreat, send me an email. If you know Shandalyn Hilliard, send her an email. Look us up on LinkedIn, on Facebook, spring Richardson Perry or Shandalyn Hilliard, and let us know and we will get you on the wait list.
Speaker 1:But without further ado, I want to introduce our guest today, dan Leal. He's been a leader in youth non-serving in youth serving excuse me, non-profits since 2002. He is the CEO of Seedling Foundation since 2017. And so he's expanded the mentorship programs for children affected by parental incarceration. That's amazing. I will say that prison ministry is big here in Texas, and so he is a Texan. He's up there in Austin with his wife, kristen. He has two adult sons and two grandchildren. He's also a mentor himself. He previously led the Children's Advocacy Center in Denton County for 15 years. He was championing child safety and justice. So Dan has just a huge background in nonprofits and youth advocacy, and so I'm super excited to bring him on today so that we can talk about fundraising and donor stewardship. So, dan welcome.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here and an exciting topic for sure.
Speaker 1:For sure, for sure. And so we had a little discussion offline, he and I, prior to this tap taping, and we were just talking about how important right now, in this moment, diversifying your funding is, and so we really want to dig deep into that today. Talk about fundraising, donor stewardship, all those good things, and so I want to start with this, dan talk about how nonprofits can effectively balance the need for immediate funding with cultivating those long term donor relationships, because we know in the nonprofit sector, funding can be pretty slow. You got to apply, then see if you've been awarded. So how do you balance that?
Speaker 2:awarded. So how do you balance that? You know, what's interesting about this topic is there was a while there, maybe during the pandemic and shortly after the pandemic concluded, where I was kind of scratching my head, you know, regarding the disconnectedness that we were feeling with our donors. But where I've come to spring is and to answer your question, I think it's for both it really is all about relationships and it does take intentionality on our part and you think, okay for the long-term relationships especially and that's true for the longtime donors, to get your major gifts, it revolves around those relationships. But I also think for the need for money right now, it's still about relationships. So here's like an example so like and where you can get them.
Speaker 2:So foundations, like we all want that foundation money as nonprofits, because you're like oh great, you know that money comes in bigger chunks, but it's hard to gain the relationship with the foundation people because some of them just take the application or whatever. But I think if we're intentional about getting even the face-to-face time with, like, the program officer of the foundation, or if it's a government grant source, asking questions, getting some time on their team's calendar or whatever, it's still the same. It just comes in bigger chunks for the short term, and so I think you've got to be working both. You've got to be trying for the short term and you've still got to have your eye on the long-term cultivation. But both, either way, are about relationships and it's a matter of how you attain that relationship. Is it the short Zoom call just to put a face with the name for your follow-ups, or is it the long-term, which is more of the coffee or dinner or lunch type deal? But it's, relationships makes the world go around. So you still got to work on both at the same time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true, and so many people were saying this about the pandemic. Was that connectedness right? So they were losing touch with their donors, with their major sponsors, and it was people were trying to figure out digital fundraising at that point, Like, how do we do this? And it was really surprising to me, though, how many nonprofits just relied on like in-person checks. You don't have like a credit card system or like a you know like a PayPal or something that people can give online.
Speaker 1:So that was. That was very interesting to me too that a lot of nonprofits had to figure that stuff out.
Speaker 1:And so it was really interesting to me, though, what you said about the government grants, right, and so there's always a contact person on the government grants, especially those federal grants. And even if you just call because because, let me tell you, you're going to have a question about something in that RFP, because the wording is terrible and so you're going to have a question, you call them, you ask them your question, and then they usually get your information like oh, oh, what's your name, who are you calling with? And they will answer the question. Who's really on the other side of this computer? Like? I don't hear a voice, I don't see a face.
Speaker 1:So I'm just going to answer this really quick and you're out of my way. But you pick up the phone, you call, it really makes a difference.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, and we have to get over ourselves in that regard because the world is teaching us shortcuts and shortcuts are not always the best. So sometimes we as individuals fall into that email trap because it's quick and easy, but for fundraising it's not the best way. So what you're saying with that person as personal of an outreach as you can do, and you and you have to check yourself and if you have colleagues at your nonprofit, hold each other accountable to get those more personal contacts and what does that look like in your donor relation, meetings for that and that's helpful. So we don't individually get passive in our ways.
Speaker 1:For sure, for sure, because it's easy to just kind of be like oh, I'll just send an email really quick.
Speaker 1:It's easy, it doesn't take long, I don't have to be bothered. But when you're, you have to think about this, right? When you're asking people for big money, that's like if somebody comes to you and they say, hey, dan, I need to borrow a thousand dollars to pay my rent or whatever right. You're going to be like, okay, I need to borrow $1,000 to pay my rent or whatever right. You're going to be like, okay, first of all, you got to check your bank account to see if you even have it to give right. But secondly, you're going to be like, okay, so if I give you this money, what happened that you don't have it? Why do you need it? And if I give it to you today, what are you going to do tomorrow? Meaning like next month, like are you going to have the money again? Are you going to be coming back to me? What is this? Is this a recurring thing? Is this a one-time thing? What is this relationship around me giving you this money? What is that going to look like?
Speaker 1:And so you have to think about it in terms of that, as you're asking your donors because this is their money, this is their hard-earned dollars that they're giving to you and there is no tangible return on investment as there would be in a for-profit business. If they were investing in your business, they would be expecting if I invest a thousand and you tell me my return would be 100%, I'm going to get another thousand dollars from it. Then, hey boom, we're all winning. You get the money you need up front. I get an extra thousand dollars in my pocket. But a nonprofit is different, right? The return on the investment is whatever the social service is.
Speaker 2:Right. And you know, another thing that's happening today in nonprofit fundraising that we've got to pay attention to is and people think about social media from the standpoint of oh, what do my posts look like? But let me tell you something. I mean, you know this, I'm speaking to the expert here, but what's really the best thing about social media is the contacts that you get that open the door for you to have those one-on-ones. So if I get a message, an instant message, a DM, from somebody who requests a meeting with me, well, they're interested.
Speaker 2:And if they're a prospective donor and they've asked, they say, can we grab coffee or do a Zoom? Then if it's in your ability, do grab the Zoom, because they've made that personal approach to you, they're generally interested in your cause and if you know they donate to other organizations, grab the in-person, you know, or even ask for it if you can get it. But I think social media I think people are starting to get it that that's the opportunity, especially with LinkedIn, to grab those in-person meetings with prospective donors. I mean, obviously we've got to use discernment because we're getting hit up by all kinds of people that want to do business with you for their for-profit business.
Speaker 1:But man, the donor opportunity as a result of those social media outreaches is pretty good it is pretty good and a lot of people on their profiles they will have like philanthropists or you know avid environmentalists or something like that, and so those, and then if you, if you take a genuine interest in them and you look at the their posts themselves, the things that they're saying, the things that they're commenting on, if you're truly following them and you look at their posts themselves, the things that they're saying, the things that they're commenting on, if you're truly following them and truly engaged with them, that is certainly an opportunity for you to leverage social media for donor stewardship. Right, because this is how Dan and I met. Right, because Dan was talking about something about nonprofits and CEOs and how. I think it was something about how CEOs can stay connected to their mission. I believe it was, and I was like this is awesome, like, and then I started to really follow Dan and the things that he was saying. I was like I got to get him on the podcast.
Speaker 1:We can really talk about this because there's there's just so many little nuances to um, there's so many nuances to the nonprofit world, you know, and people think, oh, I want to help people, I want to do good, let's start a nonprofit.
Speaker 1:I would say, pause for a second and take a look to see if there's already someone doing this in your area and go and volunteer with them and help them build their programs out, because if you can help them build it, that is more resources for you guys to be able to really do some things, whereas if you're starting another one in the area that is similar to something that's already there, then you're taking resources away from the both of you, right?
Speaker 1:And so again, that's just just another little tidbit that I'm always thinking about, because I get a lot of people that come to me and say, oh, spring, I want to start a nonprofit, and I'm like, okay, but let me give you the nitty gritty. So so that's where we go. But but another thing that what I said earlier was like, when you're talking about getting major dollars from from donors and really demonstrating what your impact is, and then in the maintaining transparency about how you can use those funds, you know what was a really good way to do that, because you know you have to get creative. When you're talking to donors, but then to the point as well, because they don't want to sit there all day with just fluff, and so how do you balance that? What's what have you seen, dan?
Speaker 2:I think, just you know, obviously the first thing donors want to know, obviously what you do. You know and how you do your work and why it's important. I think focusing on the impact of your work is really important. And then when a donor asks you well, what do you need and what are you going to do with my money? Sometimes as nonprofit development people or executive directors, we get trapped into having that feeling that I've got to do something extra with this donor's money, especially if they're a big donor, like I got to do something extra to impress them.
Speaker 2:But, man, you've got to educate that major donor, that prospect, on what it takes to run your program. And a lot of times, especially in my nonprofit and a lot of nonprofits, we're very people heavy. Like it takes people to do the quality work that we provide. Right, that is the most important thing that my nonprofit has is the quality people that provide the services to the people. But you never say, well, I want money for a salary. No, you have to explain how a general contribution because that feeds back into your people what impact that makes and how much of inputs go into your program in order to deliver quality program and then, as a result, what that will do for people.
Speaker 2:So don't get yourself hemmed in to feeling like you've got to do something new or different because we're all struggling enough for money as it is that we've got to do a best job of communicating to the donor what, what general, what donations do in terms of impact with what we're already doing in our service delivery. You know what I mean. Like, what deliverables is it going to provide and why is it so costly? Like donors, appreciate that insight and understanding because their donors are more knowledgeable now than they've ever been before. Okay, so that's better, so don't get trapped into. Oh well, what do you? What do you want me to do with your money? You need to tell them what you need and why it's important to deliver the services that you've got to deliver at your, at your core mission.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, and you know that's so true, right? You don't have to get super, super duper creative with it, right? You just have to be able to tell the story of your organization. What is it that you're going to be doing? But another thing that stuck out to me, though, dan, was you said, well, you don't want to tell them. You need it for salaries, right, and so I want you to expand on that for me, because some people think that that's okay, like I've seen that done, where people are asking specifically well, can you make a donation so we can pay salaries, and so, like, where do you find that balance?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I mean when you write a grant and you're going to write into your grant budget the salaries for the people, that's what the grant budget's paying for in a grant. But I think no matter what you write in a grant or what you say to somebody across the table, it's about the service. So you're not being dishonest, because it does take people to provide the service, but your language is about the service that those said staff provide and what the result is of the service. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:So you aren't asking for that support because it takes people to provide it, but like, for example, like the organization that I'm the CEO of, seedling it's a high touch organization, right, because we're dealing with people, we're dealing with schools and mentors and mentees, and the lay person out there thinks oh so you're a mentoring organization that you know uses volunteers to provide it. It must be really inexpensive. And why do you denote nations? Because volunteers provide it. So we've got to be especially good at explaining. Because volunteers provide it. So we've got to be especially good at explaining.
Speaker 2:We're asking for your funds to go out in the community and recruit mentors. We're asking for your money to train mentors. We're asking for your money to vet mentors, which means background checks and reference checks. We're asking for your money to go into schools and work with the schools to find the kids that need us the most, and it takes people to go in and encourage that to happen. And really importantly and procedurally is we need funds to help us support those matches. Well, because if we pour into that mentor who, yes, is a volunteer and do it with a professional staff that can intelligently answer delicate questions, be a mature person, that that you know volunteer, can handle, can entrust, and then that match lasts longer because we provide quality, professional match support. Then the result is that our matches last longer and there's better results for our kids, because the longer the match, the better result.
Speaker 2:So I just said all that, which is a lot. But I said all that to say you know, I am paying for salaries. I didn't say that that way to you. I said this is what we have to do. These are the stories we have to provide. I mean, it's people behind it, but I'm showing them the work and the outcome. And then, yes, they give me a donation and I'm going to use it on my general operation to support some of those salaries.
Speaker 1:You just stated your logic model.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, it's just how you put it. That's the words that you say.
Speaker 1:And for sure it is right, and that's why I wanted to have you clarify that for us, because, of course, salaries are needed for people to carry out the program activities, but the way you convey that information is not simply, oh, I need money for salaries. You, just like you said, you know, just like you said, you say, well, this is what we need to do, this is, this is the impact of what we're going to do and, as a result of this, we expect to see these outcomes. Right, and so that's that's the way to do it. I love it, I you know. And that's another thing that I'm thinking about too, dan is because, right, when you're explaining these things, when you're telling people who you want to be donors, right, do you have a different way of storytelling to someone who's going to be like a major donor, as opposed to someone who's maybe just given a one-time donation or like a small, recurring thing? Like, what's the difference in your storytelling for those types of donors?
Speaker 2:You know, I think the story is similar, but here's the thing With a major donor, you're likely going to be putting more time into those visits. You're going to be seeking that face-to-face time and you know what. As much as it is about what that major donor telling them about your organization, you know what it is equally or more so about. It's really equally or more so about learning about them and what is their why. Because if you genuinely get to know them and what is their why, then it informs you about really where they would be more inclined to make a gift and what makes them tick.
Speaker 2:I think, man, I tell you it is one of the most important parts about fundraising and you can feel the difference with these one-on-ones is your genuineness and your genuineness in caring about that other person across the table. So telling the story is one thing, but caring about that other person and genuinely caring about them. And sometimes and I had this happen not long ago we feel rushed because we're excited to meet with that big capacity donor, and it's a big mistake. When you rush, you understand Like we're excited oh my gosh, I may not get this person again. That's your fear. Honestly, what I've learned've learned, man. It's a big mistake we can make because of our anxiousness. Well, truly, the time with that person is more important in the genuineness, what that person can set you apart over anybody else.
Speaker 1:For sure. And you know, I think we all kind of fall victim to that sometimes too, because we're in such a fast paced world right now where everything is just go, go, go. You know, we're always super conscious of people's time because you know people are like time is money.
Speaker 1:So you don't want, you don't want to waste anybody's time, but then too you do want to take the time to really sit down and talk to them and tell them about your organization, learn things about them, because maybe you know if they're especially if they're a major donor.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And if you send gifts out to your major donors, you know, find out what it is that they like. How can we appeal to you for being so generous to us? Being so generous to us and so you know, you can find something out about them. That's like a small token of your appreciation that will go a long way and even perhaps have them contribute even more the next time around. You know, Right, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know. The other thing is that's why it's so important to put those notes into your relationship management system about what you discovered and what you found out, so that that information becomes institutional knowledge. And sometimes we get lazy and I have to have my development team hold me accountable because I'm always doing this out of the other, like Dan, did you put that note in there, or did you hit the BCC on the email that you sent? Put that note in there or did you hit the BCC on the email that you sent? And I'm guilty so often. But you learn things with these meetings that then are institutional information that you need to make sure everybody else knows, because there may be things, not just what the donor does like, but what they don't appreciate and they don't like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know you said something to me that stuck out just now too was about these donor management systems. Right, these relationship management systems, because I find a lot of organizations and I typically work with smaller to midsize nonprofits system. They don't have a way of like. They may have like, an email list, oh, and they, you know, they know specifically off the top of their head oh, we know, barbara gives us, you know, 5,000. If we ask her, and we know that Dan will give us, you know, 20,000, he gave us 25 last year. He said he'll, he'll get up it to 30,000 this year if he sees these things in the organization or whatever.
Speaker 1:And so they know off the top of their head, they're, they're big players, but there's no like there's no relationship management system where they can keep track of these things, to put notes down and to really, because, because I guess in in these, what I find in these organizations is that they're they're so small that they're just trying to keep up day to day with programming and then trying to manage a relationship management system. They're like what, what's that? Who has time for that? We're doing A, b, c, d, e, f, g in one day and we really only have time for A, b and C, only have time for a, b and c, but we fit it all in, and so, um, you know, I wonder how would ai play into this too? What have you, um, have you at any point been using ai in your nonprofit at this point? Yet?
Speaker 2:interesting.
Speaker 2:You asked that question because we have just been invited in my community for an ai grant to be one of 20 nonprofit organizations that will receive $50,000 to integrate AI into our fundraising approach, and so I'm excited about that because we're gonna be working on using AI in fundraising.
Speaker 2:But to this point you know, I am old school it's always the idea of using AI, for example, to write a letter, because I'm like, or a grant, you know, because I'm like man. It's got to be authentic. It's got to be authentic. I've been preaching authentic and you can start with something and go edit, but my development team has been using some of it Because, you know, here's where I think. I think where I've made, where I made the mistake before was we're so invested in our work and we're so in our work as the staff member that perhaps sometimes AI will unveil unveil some language that we weren't thinking about, because we're so much into the work we're like man I didn't even think about that. So I think there's an opportunity for AI in fundraising to help us think about something that we weren't thinking about because we're so far in it and so used to using the same language.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a perfect example, and I always like to say that AI is like those sentence starters that you used to see around your teacher's classroom, like you know I will do this, or you know I can say that or whatever, but it's like those sentence starters that you would see around the classroom and so it's one of those things where you know you put in some information, you ask for the help, and then it gives you suggestions and then you take that and you refine it, you make it into what you need it to be, because there is such a thing, as you know AI language. Like sometimes somebody would just copy and paste something straight from AI and you're like this came straight from.
Speaker 1:AI, like you can just tell you know so like you said, there still needs to be a level of authenticity for that. Right, but it's not totally out the window. It is really really can be very helpful.
Speaker 2:So maybe we should change the word Spring. It's nonprofit people. When we say AI, we should say authentic intelligence instead of artificial intelligence. I love it.
Speaker 1:I love it y'all. We're changing AI from artificial intelligence to authentic intelligence in the nonprofit world.
Speaker 2:There you go.
Speaker 1:Hashtag that AI, authentic intelligence. I love it. Well, I want to wrap this up, but I want to one one final question is this because you know, like we said earlier a lot of times, there can be nonprofits with similar missions right, doing similar things in an area. So how can an organization really differentiate themselves to donors, you know, but still having that spirit of collaboration in the nonprofit sector? Because you know, whenever you go to write a grant, they want to know that you're collaborating with other nonprofits to use their resources, so you're not so resource constrained and so dependent on, you know, grant funding, even though we are, and that's just what it is. But you know, how can you really differentiate yourself from other nonprofits that maybe are similar to yours?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So sometimes it's not even about being completely different, because sometimes you have an aspect of your program that's a little bit different. So we have a lot of the many of the same high level donors at my small nonprofit as a much bigger nonprofit in our community that does similar work. There is room and a heart for those donors because they were already giving to the other bigger nonprofit that they also have room to help us. Now what makes Seedling unique is that we're providing our services for kids who are impacted by parental incarceration. So for those donors it also adds a uniqueness that's attractive because they may be interested in criminal justice or you know things like that.
Speaker 2:So actually it's not really been believe it or not. It's not really been about differentiating with that particular organization, because we've actually we're actually sharing some donors. They haven't come to both, but there are other organizations and we want to be good like teammates in town and not be talking bad about another nonprofit. But there's another nonprofit in our community. Like one aspect of their program is the same as ours in terms of a core service and one is different. The one is different. People that are interested in funding tutoring, for example, they'll give there, but for the mentoring maybe that other organization doesn't have the capacity and so we can say, well, we've got a little bit more capacity here. Yeah, they're really good at that program, but this is what we do and we have a little bit more capacity. You can actually talk really good about the other non-profit, uh, but then then also explain some differences so that the donor can still give to that nonprofit but then they're not feel like they're duplicating because you're explaining the difference.
Speaker 1:Right and see, that's where I was trying to really figure out how to make donors feel like my dollars are going to something unique, something that's different, something that this other nonprofit is not doing, which, in your case, is very unique. Right, Because you're providing mentors and your focus is on kids who have been impacted by incarceration parental incarceration or, if they do, you work with juvenile incarceration as well.
Speaker 2:Or no, just the child who, uh their parent is incarcerated okay, yeah, and that's a whole like.
Speaker 1:That's a whole other thing, because prison ministry has really been on my mind lately.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and um, I was talking to my husband about this recently and so I don't know, I've been praying about it, so we'll see we'll see, but you know what that's the cool thing is, because when you have a mission, it meant like, oh, this is, this is another thing. I know we've got to wrap up soon, but here's another mistake that nonprofits are making right now Is you got to be open to a lot of different publics that could potentially fund your organization? So when you talked about present ministry and churches, I'm like that's a perfect match for seedling. Even though seedling is not faith-based, churches are going to be interested in what we do.
Speaker 2:We need as much as we can to make our nonprofit attractive to everybody, especially in a world that is so divided yes, a world that is so divided and so people have got to check their personal stuff at the door. Do you understand what I mean, without compromising your mission? Now, I'm not telling anybody to compromise their mission, but in this world it's hard enough to get money. So we don't want to divide your donors either, but rather you look for opportunities for commonalities, and that's the world spring. If we can all just show the commonalities that we have in a world that's always trying to divide, then why don't we have such a much better place if we were always trying to find commonalities, or why people can all pitch in to help your nonprofit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm always, I'm always at the notion that there is plenty of resources out there to for everybody, right?
Speaker 1:So, we just have to know how to steward those resources, and so, you know, this is. This has been wonderful, dan, thank you so much for your input on this, because this has been something that's really been on my mind lately, too, in terms of donor stewardship and fundraising, and and doing it in a way that, like you said, doesn't compromise the mission of the organization but conveys the message and the impact that you're truly trying to have. You know, without, like you said, when I'm saying, hey, can you pay for my salaries?
Speaker 1:So I appreciate you, Dan. Thank you so much. If people want to connect with you or get in touch with you in any way, how would they do that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, just get on LinkedIn and find me there Dan Leal, ceo of Seedling Foundation. They can also email me at dan at seedlingmentorsorg. I love helping other nonprofits. I love having coffee with other EDs. We're a very collaborative organization and we're all in this together for the good of our community. So never hesitate to reach out because, in addition to children's services, my other heart is just helping other nonprofit leaders to be successful and even learn from my mistakes that I've made over the years. Right, because we got to be humble about that and we're learning every day as people. So let's just try to work together. Apply what I've learned to help you through my mistakes or victories. Learn to help you through my mistakes or victories.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, dan. I appreciate you. Thanks, guys, for tuning in to another episode of the Spring Forward podcast, and until next time, guys. See you later.