The Spring Forward Podcast
Every week, I name the people problem your organization is quietly living with and what the evidence says to do about it.
I'm Spring Richardson-Perry, organizational culture and HR consultant, I-O psychology researcher, and founder of Time to Spring Forward. Before I consulted for organizations, I worked inside them as a classroom teacher, instructional coach, school administrator, HR manager, and executive board member. That means I'm not describing your problem from the outside.
Each episode takes one thing leaders get wrong about culture, engagement, strategy, or funding, and breaks it down into something you can actually use this week. No consultant-speak. No vague frameworks. Just the thing itself, named plainly, with the research behind it.
Your people are your performance. Let's talk about what that really requires.
The Spring Forward Podcast
Battling Burnout
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This episode discusses the pervasive issue of burnout, especially in the nonprofit sector, focusing on its symptoms, impact, and practical strategies for recovery. Spring Richardson Perry and guest Shandelynn Hilliard, licensed professional counselor, share personal experiences and insights on recognizing burnout in oneself and others, emphasizing the importance of self-care and community support.
Navigating Nonprofit Burnout
Spring Richardson PerryHey , nonprofit friends , welcome to the Spring Forward podcast , where we talk about all things nonprofit , from board discord to grant writing and strategic planning tips . If you're an executive director , nonprofit board member or just someone heavily involved in the nonprofit sector , then this is the podcast for you . Let's spring forward into excellence , and this is the podcast for you . Let's spring forward into excellence . Welcome , welcome everyone to the Spring Forward podcast . I am your host , spring Richardson Perry , and we are back . It's been a minute . I was on a little hiatus trying to figure out what is next with the podcast , and so we are back and I am excited to share all the new things that are going to be happening with this podcast . And so , for one , my focus has been organizational development in general , and these days I am now fully focused on nonprofits specifically . So for those of you that don't know me , let me reintroduce myself really quickly . So I work with nonprofit organizations , helping them with grant writing , strategic planning , fund development , governance and compliance . So what that means is grant writing , of course , is self-explanatory , but fund development , I will help you with fundraising strategies , help you identify different streams of income for your nonprofit and , just overall , help you to be a more financially sound organization , because a lot of times nonprofits forget that you are still a business , so there is a business side to things that has to be addressed . So I help you guys with those things , as well as helping you with board stuff in terms of workshops , leadership development , understanding what the board's role is as opposed to the actual staff of the organization . Compliance things nonprofits run into all kinds of issues with compliance just because many of them are unaware there's so many changing regulations each and every year , especially with tax compliance . So my husband is actually a tax expert he does , he's a certified tax professional and so he helps me help nonprofits with that . And then , finally , with strategic planning . I actually just did a strategic planning session this weekend with a nonprofit board that I sit on . I sit on two nonprofit boards here locally . One is called the Well Rockport . They are a nonprofit that focuses on helping women who are victims of domestic violence and or sexual assault , and so we are establishing some transitional housing here in Rockport , texas . I also sit on the board of the Children's Coalition of Aransas County and they serve children and their families here in the Rockport area .
Spring Richardson PerrySo a little bit about me . That's it About the podcast . Together . We went on our college graduation trip together . I was at her graduation for her master's degree and when she was getting licensed to be a therapist . So when I say that's my girl to be a therapist , so when I say that's my girl , that's my girl for real , I'm not just saying that . So we are super excited to be talking to you guys today about burnout . This 2024 , when I tell you 2024 turned me every which way but loose . And I find a lot of people felt the same way . They were burned out but didn't even realize that they were in burnout . So we're going to be talking about that today . We're going to talk about some strategies to help you cope and some things that she and I have been discussing and talking about . So , without further ado , let me bring on my girl , shandalyn Hilliard . Hey , hey , shay , what's up ?
Shandelynn Hilliardgirl , girl you can listen .
Spring Richardson PerryOnly way .
Shandelynn HilliardWhat time ? Only way , but it's been a good day . It's been a good day . Let me catch my flyaways . We almost threw on some gray .
Spring Richardson PerryOh yeah , see , it's Monday . Monday is a gray day , you know , because you don't know what to expect . You're just starting your week out , so it's like I need some gray , because there's some gray area for me today .
Shandelynn HilliardSo I got to figure out what the rest of the week is going to look like , so I may have some Well we're on , oh my goodness .
Spring Richardson PerryWell , I'm excited to have you on today to talk about burnout , because I'm sure this is something that you see frequently in your clients and just overall when we think about mental health . This is one of those things that we don't talk about a lot . We talk about psychological safety , we talk about mental illness in general , but we don't talk about just burnout , exhaustion , just doing all the things , feeling like you're not getting anything done , and then you fall into this sort of black hole , and so I want to really get into this . First , talk to me about how you define burnout , like how does it differ from just everyday stress ? What is burnout ?
Shandelynn HilliardYeah , okay , it's the dragging of me by my wig , that's what it is . But burnout is going to be a prolonged exposure to chronic stress , right so , and it's going to intensify over time if we don't do anything about it . Okay , so it's imminent , essentially . And then your everyday stressors . These are typically temporary , so imagine like deadlines , or imagine like the student who has a test or something coming up , right . Once that challenge is met , our stress goes down until the next thing comes up , right , so it's going to be different in the intensity and then how long it is Okay , that makes sense , because for a prolonged period of time , I was feeling a certain type of way , and so that makes sense .
Spring Richardson PerrySo that kind of leads into the next one , though , because , because , like , what are those common symptoms ? What do you normally ? What is it ? What does it look like ? What are some signs that people have , whether they're a caregiver , a nonprofit leader , a parent , a student , whoever ?
Shandelynn Hilliardthey are .
Spring Richardson PerryWhat are some signs that they're experiencing burnout that they should be aware ?
Shandelynn Hilliardof . So one of the top ones is going to be like feelings of overwhelm , right . Some of them could be just like the idea of feeling stuck and not being able to do anything . With it . It can be a lack of motivation , right , I just don't feel like doing nothing . I don't want to look at it , I don't want to talk about it , I just want to like take a nap , right . Or it could be anxiety . It could be going physical , where maybe it is headaches , maybe it is like gastro issues , like my stomach been hurting , but like what's up , why I got this migraine .
Shandelynn HilliardThose are all signs of it that sometimes we don't take it into account , right , because I don't feel like doing nothing To me . I just don't feel like doing anything , but I will . For instance , I will make you a vision bingo card . Okay , I'm going to avoid all the adult things I have to do and I'm going to make it pretty . I've been coloring all week Because I ain't got it . But also I'll say this I did take a week off purposely . It's like my kickstart of the year . From my birthday , I'll take the week off , and so I don't want to think about work , but maybe I should have put my gray sweater on today . Maybe it is one of those kinds of days , but those are going to be the things . Another one could be feeling incompetent , which is crazy , but yeah , like I don't even know how to do that but yeah , like I don't even know how to do that .
Spring Richardson PerryThat's , that's crazy , because all of the things that you're mentioning , it's like I have experienced those things all at one time , right . So the feeling of these headaches just coming on out of nowhere , the feeling like I just don't want to do anything , and not just because it's like a moment in the day where the feeling like I just don't want to do anything , and not just because it's like a moment in the day where I'm like , okay , I've done enough , I don't want to do anything else . Like I wake up , I don't want to do anything . I go to sleep , I haven't done anything . I wake up again , I don't want to do anything . Almost like in a depression , but not necessarily feeling the gloom and doom , but just like I'm just exhausted , I'm just tired , I feel heavy and I don't know what to do . And every time I try to do something , my brain is just cloudy and foggy and nothing makes sense and I just don't know .
Shandelynn HilliardSo oh girl , you get it , like all of those things . So the fogginess , like the mental exhaustion , yeah , it's real , but again , sometimes we don't think about it until , like , somebody make us think about it . It's like , oh you right , that's what happened , that's exactly it .
Spring Richardson PerryRight ? Because ? Because you're not , you're not putting all of these things together as one consolidated event . Everything in your head is individual . Oh , I have a headache , let me take an aspirin . Oh , I'm tired , let me go lay down .
Shandelynn HilliardOh .
Spring Richardson PerryI don't feel like doing anything today , I'll just get to it tomorrow and everything is just it's isolated own thing . Until you talk to someone like you and you're like , oh , is that what's been going on ? Because it sounds like to me you're a little burned out . So , like I want to talk about this , because what I find what's been going on with me ? I've just been having so much happening lately in terms of the business and then caring for my dad who's aging , who's absolutely going nuts , and then you know , trying to put it all together like what is the difference ? Maybe how would burnout manifest in a caregiver versus like a nonprofit leader or someone at work ? And I want y'all to know that specific chandelain has a really , a really close relationship to burnout and caregivers too . So this is something that's near and dear to her heart as well , because not only is she seeing it in her clients , but she's seeing it in her personal life as well .
Shandelynn HilliardSo talk to me about that okay , so I guess I'm gonna start off with I don't believe that there is a difference , like there is no versus here and there , between , like , caregivers or nonprofit leaders
Self-Care Strategies for Nonprofit Leaders
Shandelynn Hilliard. I think we feel it the same , it manifests the same Like I legit can't think of like a indicator that would say you're separate from this person because of this thing . The feelings , they're the same . So you're feeling overwhelmed that we just talked about Detachment , if you've ever felt that . So again , right , I'm not doing it today , I'm going to just detach .
Spring Richardson PerryI just want to run away .
Shandelynn HilliardHow about that ? Seriously , like , can I pack a bag ? I legit told him I was in a session one day and I was like I mean I want to get on a plane right now . And my client was like wait what ? I was in session one day and I was like I mean , I want to get on a plane right now . And my client was like wait what ? I was like , yes , I would like to go Now , book me a flight Again , the encompassing or how about feeling inadequate ? Like again , I don't know , I can't do when it's all false . Feeling drained , that's a big one . So the same thing . So the mental exhaustion is all the same . They manifest the same way Caregivers and nonprofit leaders , we are the same .
Spring Richardson PerrySo I imagine that there's going to be some long-term health consequences if this continues to go unaddressed . What does that look like ?
Shandelynn HilliardIt looks like chronic stress . It looks like it looks like chronic stress . It looks like it let's just say , let's break it down so long-term physically , mentally and emotionally right . So your physical impact could be the sleep that we keep talking about . So it's fatigue , it's that exhaustion it can present as um insomnia , hypersomnia , right ? So we all around here walking around talking about I get sleep , well , I'm tired hypersomnia , right . So we all around here walking around talking about I get sleep while I'm tired , hypersomnia ? Um , you can have , like your weakened immune system . So , right , we're getting sick . Like , why are we getting sick ? What's happening here ? And I'm carrying too much um , heart issues , um , hypertension , heart disease . Those are all parts of things that can manifest if we're not taking care of ourselves . Right , there is um again going into like the emotional side and the mental side that correlates . So you have like the anxiety , the depression . Those things are going to correlate , but they're going to come from that mental side . So I'm detached , um , I'm pretty cynical now of the people .
Spring Richardson PerryUm , it gets a little self-work , or even think about like your decision making , like sometimes it starts to deplete , you said earlier , it's real , your memory function is real , and I think I don't think people realize that decision fatigue is real too , like when you are like the leader of an organization , like , for instance , my executive directors for nonprofits . Right , they get this compassion fatigue as well as this decision fatigue right , because it's a constant putting out the fire right the next crisis , dealing with the crisis of the day or the crisis of the moment . You have to make these hard mission . You need A B , c , d , e , f resources , but I only have A B and C and half an F and D and E . We haven't had since 2001 .
Spring Richardson PerryYou know , so it's it's hard , so it's hard . It really is hard on my leaders , especially that I see and I'm always trying to help them sort of take a step back and really just reflect , just take a moment and just think , just breathe , just take a step back from it all , take yourself out of the day to day and relax and do some . I think another thing here that that may be helpful is some self care . But talk to me about what that , what that looks like , like how can you , what can you do , maybe setting boundaries or what is it that is helpful ?
Spring Richardson Perryin managing this and preventing this .
Shandelynn HilliardYeah . So just before I go into that , I actually read something and it says empathy is required but personal restoration is neglected . And I was just like , yeah , yeah , yeah , sign me up , because we will , we will sign up to do all of the things . So , again , when we put the nonprofit leaders and caregivers same thing , right , you're putting the company or the community or , you know , the person ahead of what you have going on . So you're underfunding . That's real . So now I have to do more with less , which is wild to me , right , because I can't just make it like a peer , but I have to Because , yeah , because there's right . So part of this self-care idea . So think about self-care like your security blanket , right , so it is like the reassurance , it is a grounding of sorts . Self-care is going to bring you back to you and , again , if you don't , burnout is imminent , Like it's coming for you , right , and do the first thought is say no , okay .
Spring Richardson PerryThat's my word of the year . You know how everybody picks a word for the year . I said this year , my word is no . The answer is no , it is a full sentence . It doesn't require an explanation . No is no . I say no . That's it Because often times too , we find ourselves in this , in this sort of like limbo , where it's like I know I'm tired , I know I can't push myself anymore , but this person needs me to do this , or you know , my mission to serve is this and this is what I'm supposed to be doing .
Spring Richardson PerryBut you can't do it all , and that's something I had to learn the hard way and I think you know . Besides the no , one of the things that really helped me was this journal , the invitation Journal . So if y'all don't know this journal , journaling has always been super helpful for me , but this is Shanda Lynn's Journal . This is what she created as a mental health expert . It has prompts in here that really give you some clarity . It helps you to think about . Okay , like I'm gonna give you an example . Oh , my girl . Question number one you're reflecting on the past week . It says what challenges did I did I face this past week , if any I did I face this past week , if any , so right then and there you write down what happened , what challenges you faced , and then it says what lessons did I learn from those challenges ?
Spring Richardson PerryWhich to me was like , as I was going through this , I was like , oh my gosh , like , yes , what challenge did I face ? What was it I learned from that ? Because every experience is a learning opportunity and whether that experience is good or bad , you learn something from it . But if you don't stop to think about what it is that you learn and value that particular experience for what it was , that experience , whatever it ended up being , and then move on from it .
Spring Richardson PerryI think the burnout really comes in when we start holding on to things too right , things that weren't meant for us to hold , on to burdens that weren't meant for us to carry , burdens that weren't meant for us to carry . Darlene was laughing at me . She said she was like when I wrote the post on social media , like I'm all of them . I'm the parent , I'm the caregiver , I'm the nonprofit leader . All of those three things are me . All of those three things carry a very heavy weight , a heavy burden , and but it doesn't have to when you learn how to really manage your time effectively Again journaling when I tell y'all . This journal saved my life . This is amazing , thank you . We need to get you one , so I will put the link in the comments for y'all so you can get one . Journaling is so helpful it is .
Shandelynn HilliardIt is A little cheat sheet for that area . So what I will do is I won't wait to the end of the week when I'm reflecting . If something comes up , I'm going to notate it . Because , again , if we're in a space where we're foggy or concentration , focus isn't there , I'm going to forget . So I'm going to go ahead and notate it . I'm going to put it down what my challenge was and write it in there . If I've come up with something helpful , I can put it there too . But for me it's been helpful just kind of maneuvering around the journal itself . But also , don't forget to put your wins there too .
Shandelynn HilliardOne of my things when I always buy journals , I know this whole idea of being happy and , like I made it like a journal , it was just so happy . So that's why I said no . But what was the challenges ? And then after that , what was your win ? So I can see , right , life is ebbs and flows , like it's moving , it's constantly moving . And also , if I go back to July 4th or something like that , right , I can see , oh , on that day I experienced this , because maybe I'm experiencing that again , and so if I'm putting down how did I overcome it , I can use that again . So the journal is just like a tool that's going to bring you . It's a wraparound . I think that's a good word .
Shandelynn HilliardIt's very transformational and it takes you on a journey where you can really be like I felt cool that day . I feel like trash today , and that's OK . Today I feel amazing .
Spring Richardson PerryIt also . It also allows you to really see your journey , your journey right .
Spring Richardson PerryIt's a visual of where you started and then where you're going , because this , this journal , takes you on a 90-day discovery , a 90-day journal of self-discovery where you learn about the things that that plague you , the things that challenge you , like what's challenging to me may not be challenging to Shandalyn , but you learn more and more about yourself and you start to learn how to deal with these things and sometimes mitigate them before it even comes up , because you know , okay , this is a trigger , so I'm not even going to deal with it . And so it . I mean it . It's just y'all when I tell you transformational is an understatement , like it is so . So transformational , it just it . It helps you to see through new eyes . That's the best way to explain that it
Transformational Healing Retreat for Nonprofit Leaders
Spring Richardson Perrydoes .
Shandelynn HilliardI would say the first time I did right , because I'm always somebody who has to try it out before I tell somebody , oh , go do this thing . When I finished my first 90 days , I was like , oh , I am cognizant of my mood , like I me therapist , right , yes , I can be happy , I can be sad , I can do all of these things , the , the , the example I always give my clients . Um , so , going back to 2022 , when my grandmother passed that morning , I got up , I went to church , I had a facial plan . Um , my best friend was moving girl . I went over there , we had shots for no reason , you know , whatever . Um , it's a Sunday , sunday , fun day , and I got my facial and I'm on high . About 20 minutes later , I get a phone call from my mom . Now she's calling back to back and I'm like , ah , because I used to say don't call me back to back Cause I don't know if it's an emergency , right , and so this time she called it like everything dropped , right .
Shandelynn HilliardBut I remember going , like , to the hospital that night . You know , we , uh , we had to go . You know , check out my grandmother , all of these things . But I went home in a journal and for the next few days I just kept journaling and what I saw was my mood was like I'm here , man , whatever . Here we go again . And then I remember the day I was happy . I was like , oh wait , I'm happy . And so we need that , because we'll think that it's a continuous thing of like , um , pain or grief or not saying grief stopped right . But it's this continuation of things and if I look at it without writing it down , I'm gonna think every day was trash and every day isn't . But yeah , so that's the story I passed like you gotta do it , no matter what . You have to push through it so you can see what's happening . And that's what the journal did for me .
Spring Richardson PerryI love it , I love it . Another thing y'all that is really really helpful , especially for me when I was going through a really tough time back in 2021 , and I went on . I guess you can call it like a retreat .
Shandelynn HilliardIt wasn't a structured retreat .
Spring Richardson PerryAt the time it was just me just getting away with one of my friends and we went to this yoga resort out in Costa Rica and I find that a change of scenery sometimes is super , super helpful .
Spring Richardson PerryMachinery sometimes it's super super helpful . And so , like when I was talking about running away , like sometimes you do just want to run away , but if you have like a scheduled event right or something planned that you know like hey , I know in September I'm going to this place , it's going to be great , like that sort of gets you through it too . Because as I was going through all the things back then , at that time I kept thinking in my head , oh , but I have this trip and that would just light me up . So , just with journaling and then that trip that I had planned , it was so , so helpful in terms of my mood , my emotions and really helping me to like to stay focused and to not see everything as just doom and gloom . Because if you it's a mindset thing , right , you , it's a mindset thing , right if you're constantly , if you're constantly in this doom and gloom state of mind , what is ?
Spring Richardson Perrythat gonna do for you , right ? Don't be writing on , my grace letter I don't put on grace letters all day , every day , y'all shanley is getting on me today .
Shandelynn HilliardI see , you won't see Dior for a long time , like that's where you're going , like it'll be different . Maybe you'll see the butterflies and the sunshine versus the gray and all of the things . Yeah , you see the beauty in the things .
Spring Richardson PerryWell , I'm excited because we are planning something super special , yes , and I think it would be very , very helpful to a lot of people to just have a change of scenery , some place that is just relaxing . Nice , you can go on the water for a little bit . Nature is super helpful when you're like you're feeling down . That's one of the things that I love um , to go take a walk or to go . I don't live far from the beach , so I'll go walk on the beach or something like that put my foot , put my feet in the water , because when you were in houston , I was gonna say at home you don't want to put your feet in that dirty water anyway .
Shandelynn HilliardI mean we used to , but we're not gonna . We're not gonna do that now . We know better we know better .
Spring Richardson PerryWhen we know better , we do better and in case if y'all didn't pick up the accent . We are both from new orleans and so we love the water . The water don't love us , but we love the water we do that .
Shandelynn HilliardWe love the good water , the blue water , the blue water .
Spring Richardson PerrySo so we are . We , we want to plan a getaway so that those of you that are in that moment , that are experiencing this burnout , that need to just get away for some transformational healing , that need to just get away for some transformational healing , that you can access that . And so we don't have all the details planned yet , but we were doing this for us and then we realized like , hey , like some people like me this , and they're like what are y'all doing ? Well , tell me about it and when y'all gonna do this . So we don't have all the details planned yet , but as soon as we get some more information , we will start to put it out there . If you want to be on the waiting list , you can message me , you can message Shandalyn . Just let us know and we will keep you updated . But we will certainly have more information soon to come with the details about when it's going to be , where it's going to be , what you can expect , the cost of it , all those good things , because we know that plays a factor in things too .
Shandelynn HilliardSo I'm excited . I'm so excited . I just want to be near the water you talking about like whatever because I ain't getting anything . I'm saying , okay , I'm not doing that , um , but yeah , I'm excited , um , because I definitely again right , I want to run , I want to run away sometimes and while that that may sound bad , it's okay . You need a break sometimes and I think you know , come hang out with us , let's see what we have to offer , especially if you enjoyed this little bit that we gave today . Imagine like time with us , girl .
Spring Richardson PerryIt's going to be fun . It's going to be fun . You will get a snippet of how Shandalyn does her sessions , her therapy sessions . There will be some healing work in there , just some leadership , personal development things that I like to do with my clients as well .
Spring Richardson PerryWhen it comes to my nonprofit leaders and really digging deep into who you are , what is your personal mission , your personal values , what is it that you want out of life ? Basically and I know it sounds like guru-ish and all that kind of stuff , but I don't know , lately , maybe your 30s are for figuring out who you are , because , first of all , I would never tell y'all how old , exactly how old I am , just know I'm somewhere in them thirties , okay . But it just seems like there are certain times in life where it's all about having fun , it's all about being with your friends and doing all the things , and then you move into this phase where it's like , okay , what is my purpose ? Why am I here ? What am I doing ? Yeah , like what ? What are my like ? I ? I feel like I want to do more , I'm called to do more .
Spring Richardson PerrySo now , what does all of this mean ? How do we put all this together ? And so that's basically where we , where we are and what we're going to help you do is to really identify your personal mission . Give you some self-care , some , some good self-care yeah , absolutely . And then and then just just help you relax , because sometimes all you need is a couple of days to get away and you come back a brand new person . I can attest to that .
Shandelynn HilliardAnd the other part of it is coming with other people , right ? Sometimes , again , we think that we're the only ones , you and I , we talk . And then one day I was like , oh wait , you know exactly what I'm talking about . You and I , we talked . And then one day I was like , oh wait , you know exactly what I'm talking about . Like it's , it's real and it's while , it's indirect for me , right , vicariously for me , but it's still direct in a sense , which is weird . I got a combination of both going on . But imagine going to a place where you have all of these people with the same experiences as you and maybe they know something that you don't know , and that's okay , because I'm always down to learn . Maybe they have tips that we just don't have . I'm always down to learn , so I'm .
Shandelynn HilliardI'm so excited like I I'm . I cannot wait . I'm ready to go now . We gotta play , but I'm ready to go .
Spring Richardson Perrywe got some planning to do , guys , but we will keep y'all updated . I really honestly , this season on the podcast , I think what we're going to do is we're going to have our mental Health moment Quite often with Shandalyn , because she's great At what she does . She Is very helpful in giving you Just tips and tools To really be able to deal in a real life kind of way , not like how you have gurus telling you if we think about entrepreneurship right and they're like oh , I get up at four and I grind it out for 12 hours , I go to bed , I get up and I do it all over again . That don't work for everybody . It don't work for me , especially because I got five kids , I got a husband and I got a daddy who gets on my nerves . So I mean , you know that don't work ?
Shandelynn HilliardIt's not . And I will always say , like I was born at 1.41 PM , morning time does not do anything for me . I try my hardest , but you know the 5 am club . I keep starting that book over because 5 am . No , I'm gonna go to sleep .
Spring Richardson PerryI'm one of those . I'm definitely a 5 am club girl . See , I want to be .
Shandelynn HilliardSo maybe again I'm gonna come on this trip and you might help me make maybe sunrise yoga maybe , and then I'm gonna come back home and be like girl look y'all in on some of this ground floor planning .
Spring Richardson PerryWe love it . So if you have some tips for us , please message us . Please let us know . If you want to know more about what is to come with this retreat , Message us , Let us know . We'll get your name on the waiting list . I truly appreciate you all today for tuning in . You know , if you have any feedback for me , get in touch with me . I'm on LinkedIn Spring Richardson Perry . I'm on Facebook Spring Richardson Perry . Instagram is at Springy underscore springtime and then Shandalyn . How can they get in touch with you ?
Shandelynn HilliardSo Facebook . You'll find me , shandalyn Hillard . On Instagram it is teatimetherapy . P-l-l-c . Email shandalyn at teatimetherapyorg . Or you can visit my website for all of that . So it's teatimetherapyorg . Or you can visit my website for all of that . So it's Teatimetherapyorg .
Spring Richardson PerryAnd that's T-T-E-A , t-i-m-e , therapyorg . Thank you , baby . Thank you Until next time On the Spring Forward Podcast . Bye y'all , bye On the Spring Forward Podcast . Bye y'all , bye .